Apr 3, 2007

Dangerous Games

It's kind of amazing to me that high-stakes international politics sometimes looks like a school-yard squabble. Nobody wants to admit they made a mistake and say they're sorry.

In the current stand-off over the British sailors held in Tehran, both sides say the capture was made on their side of the international boundary. And both sides are flat out lying. The simple truth is that there is no agreed international boundary in the Gulf. See the analysis by Craig Murray, former head of the UK Foreign Office's Maritime Section, Blair Faked Map. short version, there is no way either the Brits or the Iranians can state with certainty which side of a line that doesn't exist that boat was on. Another "dodgy dossier" for Mr. Blair?

Which begs a few questions; if this area of water is disputed, why is the Royal Navy going there at all? If they wanted to avoid trouble with the situation so tense, you think they'd allow a de-facto neutral zone. (Leaving aside the bigger question, why are they in the Gulf at all?) On the other hand, why are the Iranians pushing their luck?

Part of the answer may be that the sailors were seized by radical elements of the Revolutionary Guard. The western media likes to portray Iran as a monolith headed by a dictatorial Ahmadinejad. Nothing could be further from the truth, the government there has all kinds of internal power blocs and factions and Ahmadinejad really has very little power. If the sailors had been confronted by Iranian regular navy or army the situation might have been resolved on the spot.

But there may be something else, a reason why more pragmatic elements of the Iranian leadership seem willing to push the issue. There is a piece in the Indepedent that has got a lot of attention; it reports that the Iranians are responding tit-for-tat after the Americans raided their diplomatic liason office in Arbil.

Early on the morning of 11 January, helicopter-born US forces launched a surprise raid on a long-established Iranian liaison office in the city of Arbil in Iraqi Kurdistan. They captured five relatively junior Iranian officials whom the US accuses of being intelligence agents and still holds.

In reality the US attack had a far more ambitious objective, The Independent has learned. The aim of the raid, launched without informing the Kurdish authorities, was to seize two men at the very heart of the Iranian security establishment....

The two men were in Kurdistan on an official visit during which they met the Iraqi President, Jalal Talabani, and later saw Massoud Barzani, the President of the Kurdistan Regional Government (KRG), at his mountain headquarters overlooking Arbil.
This nasty little incident greatly antagonized the Iranians, and for good reason. Not only is this kind of thing totally in breach of diplomatic conventions and international law, it is also puts the lie to the claim that the Iraqi authorities have any say about what goes on in their own country. These officials were there on the Iraqi's invitation. And the Americans are still holding five low level Iranians seized in the raid. (The big fish got away.)

Some of the commentary from the Jingos would almost be amusing if it weren't so pathetic; check out this utterly predictable screed from the Yorkshire Post, Let's Give Iran a Bloody Nose. Terry Jones (of Monty Python fame) has done a good job of puncturing this sort of blather; Call That Humiliation?

Let's hope the children are able to put away their toys and play nicely from now on.

29 comments:

Rod said...

To talk about the Evil Empire and little Evil Empire (US and the UK) might sound like an exaggeration, but looking at the news that comes out of these countries, and quite a few other countries that qualify as evil, one can understand why people might think this way.

As an entity, evil does not exist, but ignorance in the form of plain dumb stupidity certainly does. Therefore, it is not so surprising to hear of the backward affairs of countries that are governed by educated halfwits in expensive clothes who undergo a life-long struggle with telling the truth.

In the world’s supposedly most civilized country, they use stun guns on 7 year old kids and old people, beat up old ladies and rob them, sell their 7 yr old daughters for sex, and murder thousands of children on a whim. Their police pump 50 bullets into ordinary citizens (so they ran out of ammo), their religious leaders advocate murder, and their greatest achievements are considered to be weapons such as cluster bombs and nukes, winning beauty contests, and appearing on TV. Their favourite entertainment is ‘Shock and Awe’ and the killing of close to one million human beings, public hangings, and the corruption of political life. On the odd occasion when someone did come along and appear to speak honestly and rationally, they shot him.

The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings, and like all the other countries that think that their problems can be solved by destroying everyone they do not like, they lack the basic component to be regarded as human, morality.

Anonymous said...

"The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings." Rod

This is a moronic comment. You have posted a series of comments about Buddhism lately to keep us all right yet you hold views such as this. You should learn to shut up and look at your need to judge ansd condemn all the time. In fact do us all a favour and quit posting here - you are full of shit.

Pearl said...

Dear anonymous, I think you proved Rod's point, you are obviously a foul-mouthed moron from the Evil Empire itself. I think he hit a nerve; something you don't like to admit about your country and your habits. He obviously knows more about Buddhism than you will ever know, particularly about needing morality to qualify as a human being.

Anonymous said...

Pearl and Rod have completely missed the point about Buddhism

Rod said...

Everyone has a different idea of Buddhism, but if you want to express it then you have to learn to become more articulate.

The issue here is about a country that goes around imposing its own corrupt values on others, and the consequences. Due to the fact that recent elections were probably rigged in subtle ways, like voter disenfranchisement and electronic voting, it is debatable whether the present government represents the majority. However, the country as a whole has a poor record when it comes to basic morality.

Not forgetting that the land was ripped off from the native Indians in the first place, a country that developed through slavery should focus upon its own ignorance. As a supposedly religious nation its ideals have been somewhat barbaric, what with the separation of native Indian children from their parents to learn how to become servants, church teachings that black people can only go to heaven as slaves, and the more recent scandals of child molestation by religious community leaders.

Then, it actually put its own citizens into concentration camps and confiscated their property. No wonder some people want to blow it up. Obviously, as a country it needs to take a serious look at its own shortcomings and be concerned with the welfare of its own citizens.

Now, perhaps you could enlighten us with your own view of Buddhism regarding morality.

Bill said...

It just goes to show that we can use language to justify anything and for certain people to feel comfortable condemning entire nations in a Buddhist Blog shouldn't really surprise anyone but nonetheless it is surprising. But to do so in the name of morality is just staggering.

Lets be clear you are saying the people of the USA and UK are not human beings - that is what you said isn't it?

Was your last post meant to be 'Buddhist morality'? You've left planet earth buddy. Who do you think you are?

Could Rod tell us if he agrees with the actions of terrorists against the people of the USA and UK? Yes or no is what I need.

Aren't the governments of the UK and USA democratically elected by the people? Is that true of Thailand or Burma?

This isn't your Blog and I agree with the previous writer on this score I think it is time you gave it a rest.

Prince Roy said...

I think the Venerable is not exactly accurate when he asserts 'both sides are flat out lying'.

If there is no agreed international boundary then by definition each side has a different conception of what the boundary is. If each side has acted upon its belief, then it may be that neither side is 'lying'.

What I think is more likely however, is that either the British did clearly go into Iranian waters and were actually apprehended there, or they went into Iranian waters, went back out, and the Iranians nabbed them in international or Iraqi waters.

Anonymous said...

Trouble Under the QEW
Scene opens in a shack, one table, two chairs, a sea chest & a gramophone.
M a retired privateer, clenching his pipe firmly in his teeth/dentures (like salted almonds as Eric Ambler would describe them) & glaring at his 80 year old parrot Stan.
M- Of course I remember the incident in 'Shatt', (sarcastically) you were hiding in the bowsprit shrouds if I remember correctly.
(Smiling fondly at the memory)That's when we sank the Shah's fancy American torpedo boat.
S- Lot of good it did me, remind me again how I became a guest of the Savak for a month?
M- We did bust you out didnt we?
S- So what do you think of the fifteen?
M- eh?
S- The English, over there.
M- (Mystified) what are the English doing there?
S- Bringing light unto the heathen you fool & for your info the Shah n Shah is extinct. There is a new crowd over there now.
- (befuddled) really? poor kid, he had a pretty wife....remember? Who is in charge now? anyone we know?
S- (pensively) you think we can find us a boat? I smell loot.
M- Target?
S- Usual, Anything that moves within a 100 mile radius. Standard stuff.
They continue their planning late into the night
Curtain

Rod said...

Dyslexia appears to be a common problem in the West, I said that people without morality do not qualify as human beings. Better to get someone else to explain the words for you before you reply.

911 and other terrorist acts are simply karma made by the citizens of those countries themselves. However, making them realize this appears to be an impossibility.

As for the childish retort of telling people to go blog somewhere else, this is playing in the sandbox mentality; such things simply justify my initial assertions.

I also note that very few people are articulate enough to put forward a polite opinion, it appears that flaming, which is basically the predictable behaviour of 10 yr olds, appears to be the norm, no wonder Bhante said that the children should learn to play nicely.

Anonymous said...

As an aside, just looking at the figures of US literacy, with 90 million Americans being unable to read or write (US edu. source, despite the US literacy rate being listed as 99.9% on Wikipedia) it rates far below most third world countries. Not surprisingly, most of the highly educated people in the US, are from what we normally think of as third world countries on HB-1 visas (mainly Indian and Chinese).

Anonymous said...

Rod has no understanding of Karma. His is a mechanistic understanding more in common with Hinduism that with Buddhism.

He didn't mention Karma in the quoted post which is because he is using a concept to avoid taking responsibility for his own horrible phrase, mentality and morality when he said "The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings".

Does he or does he not condemn the terrorist attacks upon innocent people in both the UK and USA? Yes or no. That information is required. Does Rod support Al Qaeda?

Rod has some nerve preaching to other people about polite opinions - he's the one calling the people of the UK and USA immoral animals who deserve to die! He seems to think it is OK that ordinary people get blown to bits because he has projected his anger about his own life onto the democratically elected governments on both sides of the Atlantic.

By the way this has nothing whatever to do with Dyslexia and literacy rates have got nothing whatever to do with intelligence or morality.

Accusing others of being like children or animals says a great deal more about Rod than it does about anyone else who posts here.

Rod said...

Hilarious, now I support Al Quaeda?

True, literacy rates have nothing to do with morality, but they do have something to do with reading, which apppears to be something that you have a problem with. Kindly tell me in which line I used the word 'animal'.


Though there are undoubtedly many exceptions, I consider the nation as a whole, based upon its actions (and not forgetting your own contributions to my opinion) to be a dumb as rocks and unqualified to tell anyone how to lead their lives.

As for karma, I never mentioned 911 in my initial post, so there was no need to mention karma. I guess that your idea of karma is an 'eye for an eye' justifying a form of retaliation, which makes you Jewish. As for the Hindu interpretation (or correctly Brahmanism),the only way that it differs is in the idea of reincarnation rather than the Buddhist interpretation of birth and death in the present. The concept of karma was known long before Buddhism, but the Buddha realized that rebirth was moment to moment rather than life to life.
Thus, karma is from Hinduism (Brahmanism).

As for supporting the terrorist attacks, yes or no? This appears to be something important in your angry mindset, so I won't give you an answer.

As for saying that I think that it is ok to blow people to bits, I think that your assumpions are not only impolite but complete insanity; you should see a psychiatrist.

Boonlert said...

In Thai culture, anyone who becomes angry with another becomes their student. All the ‘jai rorn’ (hot mind) being expressed here by those apposed to Rod should realize that he is in fact teaching them about morality, so they should ‘wai’ him in appreciation for his efforts at teaching them. While the US is strong in materiality it is backwards in wisdom, therefore ‘dumb as rocks’ is about as truthful and precise as you can get.

Anonymous said...

What is Rod the guru teaching when he writes a crass moronic phrase like this?
"The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings."
Rod is not teaching anything. Rod is illustrating his own ignorance, his prejudices, his bias and dressing it up as "morality".
In Thai culture they also imprison anyone who speaks out against their King. That's not the way in democratic countries with democratically elected governments and freedom of speech. That would be the very freedom that Rod is enjoying when he denigrates the citizens of the USA and UK.
Like the earlier writer I'd also like to know if Rod supports the activities of Al Quaeda?

bill said...

"The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings." Rod

Still not managing an answer Rod and taking to calling other people crazy as well? How sad you are dressed up in your concepts like Venerable Empty Scripture.

Does he or does he not condemn the terrorist attacks upon innocent people in both the UK and USA? Yes or no.

Anonymous said...

More internal contradictions from Rod - he said "As for the Hindu interpretation (or correctly Brahmanism),the only way that it differs is in the idea of reincarnation rather than the Buddhist interpretation of birth and death in the present. The concept of karma was known long before Buddhism, but the Buddha realized that rebirth was moment to moment rather than life to life.
Thus, karma is from Hinduism (Brahmanism)." Yes Hinduism which is what the original post said. In fact Rod is using it in the Hindu sense in terms of moral justice, of reward and punishment which is problematic because justice is ambiguous and its use has had profoundly adverse effects on humanity in many cases. Karma is a natural law not a human creation. Rod is implying it is the Karma of the UK and USA to be attacked (in fact he stated that) so he is in fact using it in the sense applied in Hinduism and despite having copied something from a book he appears to have no sense of it in the Buddhist meaning, of volitional action. He also said that the entire people of the USA and UK are "dumb as rocks" - isn't that just a pig ignorant remarks from an angry bigot?
Like others I'd also like to know does Rod support the activities of Al Quaeda?

Rod said...

Burn away.

Anonymous said...

Rod you are a sad racist bigot and you support the terrorist atrocities carried out against the people of the USA and the UK. You should be ashamed of yourself as a Buddhist and as a human being.

Anonymous said...

Rod what do you mean 'Burn Away'? Are you referring to 9/11? or 7/7 in the UK?
This is from the Canadian Government website (http://canada.justice.gc.ca/en/news/nr/2001/doc_27787.html)
STRONGER LAWS AGAINST HATE CRIMES AND PROPAGANDA

Following the attack on September 11, Canadians have called for a renewed commitment to Canadian values of respect, equality, diversity and fairness and a strong condemnation of hate-motivated violence that has occurred in Canada and elsewhere against innocent people. This is a campaign against terrorists and not against any one community, group or faith. The Government of Canada is proposing changes to legislation that address the root causes of hatred, reaffirm Canadian values and ensure that Canada's renowned respect for justice and diversity is reinforced. Measures would include:

* amendments to the Criminal Code that would allow the courts to order the deletion of publicly available hate propaganda from computer systems such as an Internet site. Individuals who posted the material would be given the opportunity to convince the court that the material is not hate propaganda. The provision would apply to hate propaganda that is located on Canadian computer systems, regardless of where the owner of the material is located or whether he or she can be identified.

* Criminal Code amendments that would create a new offence of mischief motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on religion, race, colour or national or ethnic origin, committed against a place of religious worship or associated religious property. This offence would be subject to a maximum penalty of 10 years when prosecuted on indictment, or to a maximum penalty of eighteen months on summary conviction.

Anonymous said...

Hi, we are always on the lookout for people who go beserk. What I would like to know is whether or not you can skate. Of course you would not be considered raving loonies, just regular hockey players.

Anonymous said...

That line about hockey players isn't even your line, it's a cliché. It's so tired a line because it's an international cliché that's used right around the world. It's so tired it was retired a decade ago.

What's 'nuts' about defending people of the USA and UK against a person using bigoted ideas who implied that people killed by terrorists got what they deserved?

What is 'nuts' about sticking up for the people in both the USA and the UK who were described as coming from backwards countries and who do not qualify as human beings?

What is 'nuts' about pointing out the flawed nature of this thinking from a Buddhist perspective and what is nuts about feeling that a Buddhist should consider more deeply the actual nature of this realm?

Rod came across like a chauvinist racist using a Buddhist blog to spread racist ideas and pro-terrorist rhetoric - all because he's got overblown ideas about who he is and like a few others you might encounter in 'Buddhist' settings he uses concepts to mask his projected self loathing and the unpleasant rage that hides in his tiny
disappointed heart. That's not Rod's thing, we all do it.

Personally I don't think Rod meant to write such offensive remarks. I think he is just a bit pompous and self important and he thinks he's an authority on Buddhism and likes to feel like the teacher's pet. He got himself into a corner by writing ill considered remarks which were offensive. He did indeed play a 'Dangerous Game'. And let's be clear, his remarks are offensive. But it's not a bad man but a silly man who does that. Who hasn't been silly at sometime in their life? It just goes to show that even with a head full of big ideas and concepts heedlessness can lead you down very destructive pathways and the creation of some very unskillful results. You can go from guru to reviled leper in a heartbeat through hanging onto set ideas about who you are and how you have to be regarded.

Perhaps people view this site from both the USA and the UK and perhaps they have experienced loss as a result of terrorist activities, maybe some of them have brothers in the armed forces and maybe they came to Buddhism for consolation and ultimately freedom from this realm. Imagine their disgust at being treated to racist views dressed up in pseudo Buddhist rhetoric. Imagine their shock at being told they are less than human. Imagine their anger at being told they have been judged to be worthy of terrorist attack. Imagine all this done in the name of Buddhism.

That is ultimately what Rod's posts were saying. But I don't find using words like 'nuts' or 'berserk' very helpful. It is designed to shut people up and like some village idiot pointing at folks who are different to him, people who may have a higher base line of awareness and mental health than he, he cannot understand the significance of being confronted by the fact of uncertainty through the unfamiliar, his own small view of things, nor his own limitations and he needs to get rid of them to maintain his deluded sense of self important certainty. You should look at that in your own practice. The need to exile, get rid of, obliterate anything that upsets the cosiness of your own delusions, or gets in the way of you getting your way. You don't need to insult people across the world to see this directly, just look at how you react with aversion when painful feelings emerge while you sit in meditation, how your mind is calling then screaming for it to stop and how you want back to a never-to-be state of ideal pleasantness, a state of numb torpor where the truth always suits you and this form is insensitive and impervious to conditions. You know instinctively that cannot be. So what do you do? Do nothing. Turn toward it, learn from it and let it be...that's wisdom. All the rest is being blown about on the worldly winds.

Anonymous said...

Well, your fire appears to be burning down somewhat, but one could hardly consider what Rod said to be offensive, he was just pointing out reality. First of all everyone has to learn to walk upright, so this in itself is not offensive. As for people without morality, they constitute those who cause suffering to others through such things as fascism, terrorism, theft, rape, murder, child molestation, impolite language, and what have you. If you consider such people as examples of human beings, i.e. the correct definition being those with good minds, then that is your prerogative.

However, you yourself have spent your time attacking one person to the point of insanity, making accusations of things that were not even mentioned. So there is little wonder that people consider you to be a raving lunatic who is probably posting in multiple identities from an institution for the mentally insane. There is neither politeness in your posts nor logic, even five year olds make more sense. Your repeated mention of Buddhism is a joke, and you obviously don’t know very much about that either; karma is not volitional action but simply the result created by volitional action, or intent.

My suggestion would be to give it a rest, take your medicine and try to forget about it, your war is delusional, no one is fighting you.

Anonymous said...

"he was just pointing out reality" - really? That the people of the UK and USA are less than human and deserved to be bombed by terrorists? This is a Buddhist Blog right? What school of Buddhism is it that you practice?
"karma is not volitional action but simply the result created by volitional action, or intent."
Actually it is both and that still does not add up to a justification for celebrating the murder of innocent people by terrorists.
It's funny how people who enjoy criticising democracy want to deny freedom of speech to other people as soon as someone points out something they don't want to hear. Who are you to tell me to go away? Your name calling is pitiful especially when it is to defend something repugnant like suggesting that citizens of two democratic countries deserved to be murdered by terrorists.
You need to grow up.

Boonlert said...

Your assumptions and accusations certainly do border on insanity, at no time did anyone suggest that the people of the US and the UK deserved to be blown up. The problem lies in your lack of understanding regarding karma. First of all, being a Buddhist one should come to know that all arisings in the mind, all consciousness, all existence and every single thing that happens in our life is karma; simply explained as cause and effect, but impossible to explain in detail. Regarding 911 and other bombings, the type of karma is known as collective karma. It is just like one family attacking another family, it is not that any particular family member deserves to die, they just attack each other until there is no one remaining. The US as a nation attacks some people or does something that arouses anger, and then these people in turn do something back. If you do nothing, have no intent, then you create no karma. The people in 911 were attacked because of Israeli interests, or Jewish interests at least, as well as US interests. If you want to know about collective karma ask the Jews, they have suffered for thousands of years because of it. A small group of Jews create karma, and many innocent Jews, decent friendly people, not really connected in any way at all, other than being Jewish, suffer the consequences.

Karma goes much deeper than what you can explain in words, especially in relation to the dark energy of the minds of some beings (most of us probably or we would not be born here). So sometimes using words to explain it, and saying that it was just their karma, sounds cold, harsh and inconsiderate. Look at the situation of young children being murdered, we cannot say that they deserved it, but the contents of the mind from some previous existence allowed such a possibility. This is the difficulty in trying to explain karma; we can explain how it is created but we cannot put a suitable answer in words for why it occurred. This is just another example of Dukkha, unsatisfactoriness.

Some people may also have the idea that karma is only connected to bad deeds, whereas you can do a lot of good and still end up getting shot, particularly if you make people jealous. That’s karma too, although technically, if you don’t have any dark mindedness nothing sinister can happen to you.

We are not born with pure minds, our present existence is simply one of many, and over time we have accumulated a lot of karma, much of this is dark energy, dark mindedness, that’s why we follow The Buddha’s teachings so that we can work on not making karma.

I think your posts have created some karma due to your lack of politeness, but I wouldn’t worry about it as most of this has come back right at you. If you don’t understand what someone means then better to ask before making wild assumptions. If we fight like cats and dogs then nothing is accomplished other than wasting time and energy. However, if we show respect then the doors of communication always remain open.

Anonymous said...

More concepts used to justify offensive racial remarks. I'll post whenever I want because that it means to live in a democratic society. Are you going to run me out of Dodge, Sheriff?

You are deliberately ignoring the comments made by Rod and I suggest YOU read them again and pay attention. There were no wild assumptions - he said quite clearly "The citizens of this country have managed to be able to walk upright, but this alone does not qualify them as human beings" and "I consider the nation as a whole, based upon its actions (and not forgetting your own contributions to my opinion) to be a dumb as rocks". He also refused to say if he supported the terrorist attacks on the USA and UK and HE implied that these atrocities were their Karma. This is also the position you are taking.

Your inane lecture on Karma should be directed at Rod not me. Your views on Karma are very misguided especially your remarks about the Jewish people. You cannot possibly know how Karma arises, where it starts or where it ends. All you are doing is making assumptions and projecting them onto your limited reading of actual history.

I refuse to take lectures on politeness from people who cannot practice what they preach. Because I dared to question Rod's remarks I have been subjected to being called crazy deluded insane and wild. What exactly is polite or respectful about that? It wasn't me who denigrated the people of the USA and the UK for being the victims of terror attacks. If YOU want to waste YOUR time and energy defending the indefensible that is YOUR prerogative.

Anonymous said...

Karma - Thanissaro Bhikkhu
"But when we try unpacking the connotations the word carries now that it has arrived in everyday usage, we find that most of its luggage has gotten mixed up in transit. In the eyes of most Americans, karma functions like fate — bad fate, at that: an inexplicable, unchangeable force coming out of our past, for which we are somehow vaguely responsible and powerless to fight. "I guess it's just my karma," I've heard people sigh when bad fortune strikes with such force that they see no alternative to resigned acceptance. The fatalism implicit in this statement is one reason why so many of us are repelled by the concept of karma, for it sounds like the kind of callous myth-making that can justify almost any kind of suffering or injustice in the status quo: "If he's poor, it's because of his karma." "If she's been raped, it's because of her karma." From this it seems a short step to saying that he or she deserves to suffer, and so doesn't deserve our help.

This misperception comes from the fact that the Buddhist concept of karma came to the West at the same time as non-Buddhist concepts, and so ended up with some of their luggage. Although many Asian concepts of karma are fatalistic, the early Buddhist concept was not fatalistic at all. "

Link here: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/thanissaro/karma.html

Boonlert said...

What a laugh, I think the other people were correct, you are truly a dyslexic nutcase who appears to have an IQ of 5 and lacks any form of decency whatsoever. I am suprised that such people existed, I have never come across a human being so dumb and demonic at the same time. Your problem not mine; enjoy your madness and post away.

Anonymous said...

Boonlert is that your Buddhism?! Is this your Dhamma talk?! It can't be my heart, must be your heart.
Mai neh, mai neh...

Rod said...

While not directly connected to the war in Iraq, but rather the other war, in Afghanistan, today I met two Afghani farmers who are over here doing a government agricultural course. They were from central and eastern Afghanistan, both married with five kids apiece, and spoke of missing their children. I asked them about the situation in their homeland and whether they thought that the present situation would bring any changes, and they both said that Afghanistan will never change; an interesting viewpoint from people who live there. They also thought that eventually the foreign troops will figure this out for themselves and go home.